Curse

clawofcrimson · Jun 05, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The party wide healing and defensive buffs? Those are in need of nerfs, even with only one Paragon on a team.

one copy of Syg on a team is not a problem. One copy of SOR on a team is not a problem... heck, it's not even taken on gvg teams. how do these skills need a nerf when there is only one copy..?

Racthoh · Jun 05, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

I think Watch Yourself! could use a bigger hit. If Stand Your Ground! received the suggested change to 16 AL it would still require two copies of it within the build to maintain it for the entirety of combat (at an investment of at least 10 in command). A single copy of Watch Yourself! on the party bar would provide more defense at a similar investment, and arguably just as much up time even at 6 adrenaline. I'd rather tack on a hard 5 seconds, forcing the player to wait out out nearly the entire duration of Watch Yourself! before the adrenaline gain process on the skill begins again. A 6 adrenaline change would be welcome, but there are always means of abusing adrenaline gain. A 5 second recharge onto the skill (and maybe an extra strike of adrenaline) would force the skill into more tactical use rather than mash on recharge when the icon is flashing (or in the case of Finales, after the icon drops).

Aggressive Refrain has always felt silly when using it. An IAS that ensures your Centurion's armour bonus is always working before the combat even starts, and can't be stripped. I'd like to see it changed to 15/2/10 with the last line changed to "This echo is reapplied at a -1 attribute level everytime a shout or chant ends on you (if this were to reapply at an attribute level of 0 this echo ends)" but it would need a wording overhaul there. Basically at say 12 in leadership, it can be reapplied 12 times before it would vanish on its own. In addition, every time it is refreshed it is done so with a smaller timeframe to refresh making your shout/chant usage less spammy or the skill will end very quickly. Multiple paragons would also ensure it has to be reapplied more often making it a questionable skill slot if you plan on carrying two paragons. Since it would no longer have an endless up time, the energy would need a tone down, and at the stand a 2 second cast time means it is a target for interrupts.

An echo becomes quieter each time it 'echoes' afterall right?

Make the refrains weaker every time they are reapplied until the player is forced to a point where they need to refresh them at full strength.

master of cookies · Jun 05, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

one copy of Syg on a team is not a problem. One copy of SOR on a team is not a problem... heck, it's not even taken on gvg teams. how do these skills need a nerf when there is only one copy..?

Very true, they recharge time of most motivation skills is pretty harsh if there is only 1 paragon on a team and SYG with one copy is less of a threat than one Watch Yourself as WY is easily maintainable, 6A would make it harder to maintain and if you wanted to maintain it would possibly make you choose against using another adrenaline skill before it runs out. SYG the way it is, isn't much of a problem as it requires high investment in an attribute, even the Kournans link it in PvE!

XvArchonvX · Jun 05, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willow O Whisper

why on earth do those skills need a nerf? I mean how hard can it be to counter a sp sin? Blind/hex removal.

Because no runs anything other than an SP sin. When a class becomes almost entirely dependant on a single build for effectiveness, there needs to be an adjustment to encourage diversity. Diversity in builds = more thought required to create a build = more depth.

clawofcrimson · Jun 05, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Because no runs anything other than an SP sin. When a class becomes almost entirely dependant on a single build for effectiveness, there needs to be an adjustment to encourage diversity. Diversity in builds = more thought required to create a build = more depth.

If the build is not overpowered then 'balancing' should mean creating other options that are just as good... am I wrong?

Tarun · Jun 05, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Best thing to do: Split PvE servers and PvP servers so they are 100% separate. Then they can nerf all the skills they want and it won't affect PvE negatively.

Yichi · Jun 05, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

If the build is not overpowered then 'balancing' should mean creating other options that are just as good... am I wrong?

You're half right. "Balancing" should make more than one viable build come into play for any profession. Yet it is far easier to reword one or two skills to lower a certian build to being on par with the others, than it is to buff 8-9 skills in other builds to bring them on par with the current best build. and SP needed a hit a long time ago, back when it was being used on other characters, not just assassins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Best thing to do: Split PvE servers and PvP servers so they are 100% separate. Then they can nerf all the skills they want and it won't affect PvE negatively.

While fundamentally this would be a decent suggestion, this suggestion is only good in theory. Realistically they cannot split the servers as you could not then take your PVE character to be able to play on a PVP server. The game design was ment for both to be linked to where a player would not have to switch servers when they wanted to try out a PVP area. Any character created in the guildwars world would have access to all parts of said world. the only exception being a PVP only character. While a good suggestion, even in theory, it does present a few flaws to it.

1) is that certian skills under different attributes and different abilities would ultimately function differently, thus leading to a misunderstanding of how each should be applied or played.
2) Ultimately while certian things will be ok to decent on one side, it will be completely broken and biased on the other. Granted PVE balance isnt as crucial as PVP balance is, but PVE shouldnt be just mindless button mashing, which is what its current state is as well as PVP strictly due to certian skills and game mechanics being overused or that simply outshine every other form of game balance.
3) Players come to expect that spells/skills to work fundamentally the same in both areas, which inturn leads to the game balance and skill allocation. While having seperate servers would allow for you to be able use and abuse every skill that would not be affected by a skill retooling, it would allow for even more seperation between PVE and PVP which thus ultimately goes against the games origional design.

Thus leads to the ultimate problem which was created with the games origional design in mind. You cannot balance a PVP game for PVE and you cannot balance a PVE game for PVP which is what many suggestions have suggested. While something overpowered and broken in PVP may not ultimately efffect PVE, the status and the aspect of said skill/spell is still there. Just because a guy robs a bank and its not your bank, doesnt mean that it didnt effect others that do bank there, yet you all live in the same community. The same with PVE. A skill or mechanic could be vastly different in PVE than it would be in PVP. But because it doesnt effect PVP, doesnt mean it isn't a problem. The problem with it is that not many PVE players truly care about balance because it is a fictional game and doesnt rely on a balanced mechanic to operate as PVP does. If a mob or boss has a certian set path or a set skillbar and you know whats comming, than it just makes it easier on you to be able to adapt to that and run something that makes that area easier. The AI in any game is never going to have the capabilities and understanding of a situation that a human player is goign to have, thus will be fundamentally different than a PVP environment. Thus why the 2 will never have a complete balance between them both and with the games concept and design, why it cannot be split.

Div · Jun 06, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Best thing to do: Split PvE servers and PvP servers so they are 100% separate. Then they can nerf all the skills they want and it won't affect PvE negatively.

That's why they're making GW2, to start over the design. And what makes you think there won't be skill balances once they separate PvE and PvP?

Cebe · Jun 06, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

That's why they're making GW2, to start over the design. And what makes you think there won't be skill balances once they separate PvE and PvP?

Will PvP be truly separate from PvE in GW2 do we know? (You seem to imply this but I don't recall reading it). Also, of course there will still be skill balances in both PvE and PvP if they were separate, but the bonus is, in my mind, that they would be able to, say, nerf the hell out of Paragons so they are completely useless in PvP while still having them viable in PvE.

I'm not sure I'd like PvP to be completely separate from PvE...I know this time comes around every few months with nerfs a-plenty...and noone particularly likes nerfs, but a change to the game is good in some respects because it gives people the opportunity to try out new builds as cookie cutter builds, from time to time, drop out of favour due to the nerfs.

What winds me up is the way "nerf wishlists" are created....it's always negative (no disrespect meant to the list's creator) ...there are never any "buff wishlists"...for instance, I'd love to see Gust buffed...it's not that usable at the moment in my opinion...just reducing it's recharge by a few seconds would probably make it a lot more desirable. (and no, I'm not suggesting all the worse skills should just be buffed...I would rather Bazzr Dustwing was not made more powerful...he's quite harsh enough as he is

)

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 06, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

That's why they're making GW2, to start over the design. And what makes you think there won't be skill balances once they separate PvE and PvP?

Personally i thnk they will restore them togather again like how they once were in GW, i think the Biggest mistake Anet ever made in gw was moving all the Arenas(well most) to a seperate map and allowing the creation of PvP only characters. This is where the big divide started.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

So what's your vision of a balanced GW? Cause I don't see it, I think there will always be good skills/builds that emerge which will be labelled imbalanced, and so on and so forth. If balance exists, I still believe it cannot be achieved.

True balance would be achieved by giving every team the Exact same Stats and skills. The Battles would then skill based and the game perfectly balanced. Unfortuanally this would also make the game very short lived and unentertaining. There never will be a True balance especially with so many skills. 1 Skill will always "overshine" another, nerf one skill and the Fotm will go to the next strongest skill. Eg. Nerf Vampiric Gaze (to stop blood spike) and another skill will simply be used in its place, this is especially more true in PvP than PvE.

In gw the world is very diverse, A defeats b defeats c defeats d defeats a etc. by going build a in an area ull have an easy time against the builds b. The big difference from PvP is you know what your going to face in PvE (with the exception of the very 1st time u enter a new area) where as PvP you could be facing anything this does not make the game unbalanced, if you know SF is the current FoTM you change ur build to counter it instead of complaining its overpowered.

If you want a perfectly balanced Arena go play in the dragon Arena when it comes around again

otherwise ull be waiting for infinity.

The PvE world is effected by skill changes considerablly but people generally adapt easy enough and get back on with things be they hard or Easier. However it does leave numerious skills potentially useless in 99% of situations, such skills also fall out of Favor in PvP and become unused.

around · Jun 06, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

if you know SF is the current FoTM you change ur build to counter it instead of complaining its overpowered.

And gimp your build if you don't face SF, like for example taking mantra of flame which otherwise has no use.

Being FoTM does not mean it is the most popular build, either.

Div · Jun 07, 2007, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

What winds me up is the way "nerf wishlists" are created....it's always negative (no disrespect meant to the list's creator) ...there are never any "buff wishlists"...for instance, I'd love to see Gust buffed...it's not that usable at the moment in my opinion...just reducing it's recharge by a few seconds would probably make it a lot more desirable. (and no, I'm not suggesting all the worse skills should just be buffed...I would rather Bazzr Dustwing was not made more powerful...he's quite harsh enough as he is

)

Someone's coming up with a buff wishlist. Because of how many crappy skills there are in the game, it takes a lot longer (and less efficient) to make a buff wislist, which is why most balance changes are nerfs. Granted, Anet isn't going to take the time to buff all the skills probably, but that list is coming...

Narayanese · Jun 07, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Lots of good nerf suggestions in ensigns post. The SF one would help balance PvE a lot, though I would prefer a bit longer burning duration.

For spirit shackles, instead of 8...20d, I think it is better to make it a stronger but shorter hex, to make it good more useful in PvE (where all those long duration hexes are poor since monsters die so fast). Make it -10e per attack and 4...12d, or even -15e per attack and 2...9d.

That reaper's mark nerf suggestion is VERY hard, at least give us back the old energy gain on death so that there is some use in PvE.

I Brother Bloood I · Jun 09, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

The suggestions so far would balance the game out fully, pve and pvp, unless anet buffs something. But, it comes up that the ineffective paragon class(in pve that is) doesnt deserve nerfing but buffing. But i have news for you guys and it is that paragons are just as effective in pve as they are in pvp. I suggest taking the paras and monks from gvg(well maybe not because pve players dont know how to play monk well tbh) and putting them into a build. From there you could probably remove tanks from builds and just have them as heavy armor dmg dealers instead of constantly tanking. The only reason that paragons are not used is because of the mentality of "This works fine already we do not need to worry about testing new things because its a waste of time". Before the paragon lovers complain about the nerfs you should complain more about not being accepted or needed in builds. But, im sure if u take insanley overpowered paragon A and insert in balanced build B you will get more than you ever wanted.

But, even though what i say is true. The thing is anet has a thing for pve'rs. A thing where pvp doesnt pay the bills pve does. So probably we will get ensign's nerfs but, like always, anet will buff a class and create a new overpowered skill combinations and we will go in the cycle of nerfing and buffing like this for a while. There is a way to change this though and make it all better. Invite some paragons into party + insert decent paragon build here = everything works good. This is the time for anet to save its pvp playerbase. And it will probably come down to how much the pve'rs complain.

Div · Jun 09, 2007, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

The suggestions so far would balance the game out fully, pve and pvp, unless anet buffs something. But, it comes up that the ineffective paragon class(in pve that is) doesnt deserve nerfing but buffing. But i have news for you guys and it is that paragons are just as effective in pve as they are in pvp. I suggest taking the paras and monks from gvg(well maybe not because pve players dont know how to play monk well tbh) and putting them into a build. From there you could probably remove tanks from builds and just have them as heavy armor dmg dealers instead of constantly tanking. The only reason that paragons are not used is because of the mentality of "This works fine already we do not need to worry about testing new things because its a waste of time". Before the paragon lovers complain about the nerfs you should complain more about not being accepted or needed in builds. But, im sure if u take insanley overpowered paragon A and insert in balanced build B you will get more than you ever wanted.

But, even though what i say is true. The thing is anet has a thing for pve'rs. A thing where pvp doesnt pay the bills pve does. So probably we will get ensign's nerfs but, like always, anet will buff a class and create a new overpowered skill combinations and we will go in the cycle of nerfing and buffing like this for a while. There is a way to change this though and make it all better. Invite some paragons into party + insert decent paragon build here = everything works good. This is the time for anet to save its pvp playerbase. And it will probably come down to how much the pve'rs complain.

It's too bad people aren't willing to take risks playing paragons. After all, they're not cookie-cutter. And PvP doesn't pay the bills that PvE does because for 90% of the time, Anet is giving all their attention to PvE. Skill balance is one of the few times they pay attention to PvP, and they don't even skill balance that often...

Keithark · Jun 11, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Don't nerf anything..as matter of fact take all skills back to however they were originally put into the game. PvE is happy and to quote lots of PvP players comments that I read on here directed to PvE'rs....if PvP doesn't like it then they need to "suck less" and "LTP"

1ord i3eans · Jun 12, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I've read posts about "game balance is an illusion" and how when anet do nerfs, they're not trying to balance the game, just move the metagame in a new direction, but I hope that before they move to nerfing GW2, or whatnot, they give a good effort and at least try to balance pve and pvp

Keithark · Jun 14, 2007, 01:14 PM // 13:14

They just need to make a closed deck of skills for PvP, then they could much more easily balance play for PvP without ruining things for PvE (except those skills in the deck of course)

Wings of Fury · Jun 21, 2007, 05:16 AM // 05:16

The Sf nerf in Pvp was needed but the Mor nerf is a big blow for the Pve Sf ele, basicly your energy management is out of tune and theres a gap in your Sf spike which is even less damage so a single Sf ele in a balanced team would basicly be a bad idea now but if your ok with more sf ele's and big area pulls blow em all up at once in your team, then both nerfs really dont matter in Pve but basicly with the Mor nerf you kill the flexibility of a single Sf ele.

Gunzwei · Jun 22, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

I can agree that some of these are easily the most annoying skills to see in PvP since they have a very "fire and forget" flavor and could use some adjusting.

The only ones I can see that might affect general PvE would be..

- Watch Yourself!
- Broad Head Arrow
- Agressive Refrain
- Searing Flames

WY! - Change would basically make this almost worthless in comparison to the new defense PVE-Skills. 20ar party vs. 100ar party w/o you.

BHA - Make the arrow move normally if duration is cut. Unblockable would be nice, but that'd be overpowered ;D.

AR - Doable, paragons could switch to flail w/o a huge hastle imo.

SF - Longer burn makes up for loss in direct damage imo, but would be heavily whined about.

Other than those I rarely see any of the other skills used extensively in PvE. PvE could use a lot more adjustments than a few skill nerfs, namely..

-7 Heroes, this would go a long way for team-build diversity
- More "normal-level" PvE skills to avoid PvP abuse
- or buff unused skills
- More acessable end-game content like UW/FoW/ToPK/SF
- Less Gimmicky end-game content like DoA, spell immunity land.

Case in point, PvE has bigger issues than skill nerfs imo.